 |
|
Jan 13, 2007, 08:15 AM // 08:15
|
#61 | |||||
|
Frost Gate Guardian
Join Date: Dec 2006
|
Quote:
And ONE GFTE spammer is good enough thank you, especially if fuelled by Focused Anger. There is no use for 2 of them in a team. Quote:
"Entire party being healed after using an attack skill?" You're a n00b for saying that. Eles and monks dont get any benefit because they dont use attack skills. Quote:
Quote:
The only usable build for a Paragon is beach Fow Farming, and the submitter even admits its harder to use than a standard warrior build. While you're laughing hard, I'm taking all the greens I'm farming with my Rit to the bank. Case in point: since Xmas, I've made about 1.2 mil with my Rit. My Paragon has hardly been able to contribute anything. Quote:
I was pointing out that necros can totally shutdown Paragons, but Paragons have no innate counter to necros. It's like rock,paper,scissors in that each classes is supposed to be naturally good enough another e.g. rangers with builtin elemental resistance, but when examined like that, the Paragons dont naturally trump any other class. My point stands - you dont need 2 similarly configured Paragons in a team - they dont synergise well and overlap each other ruining finales and echos. Compared to 2 monks which work well in a team despite being similarly configured or not - you get an idea of which profession is inherently better. And to recap about your point regarding the number of viable builds - most of the ones you've included are not usable at all. That spear build is laughable. The only ones are motivation healers and WY/GFTE spammers - that makes 2 usable builds, one of which (the motivation healer) can be replaced with a rit lord or another monk. Your arguments dont bear up to scrutiny - you're certainly not getting into my teams. You basically hold up GFTE as a counterexample, but you're not making me believe that being a single-trick pony is what makes a good, lasting class. |
|||||
|
|
|
Jan 13, 2007, 08:31 AM // 08:31
|
#62 |
|
Lion's Arch Merchant
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Ocean Shores, Washington
Guild: Last Sun Rise
Profession: W/Mo
|
men dont wear skirts/i dont play paragon
|
|
|
|
|
Jan 13, 2007, 11:53 AM // 11:53
|
#63 |
|
Jungle Guide
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: guildhall
Guild: [DETH]
|
how about my pw build?
spear of lightning watch yourself go for the eyes focused anger anthem of flame stand your ground never surrender res stand your ground +watch yourself =+40al, +40al = half damage, and ooh your able to keep that up nearly permintly. never surrender can provide a emergancy heal for the entire team focused anger insures can spam WY and gfte *alot* anthem of flame for some burny action spear of lightning for some reasonable damage. re useable res gfte effects allies, so the omnipresent minions do even more damage.. gfte could reasonably effect 14-18 allies if u include minions... |
|
|
|
|
Jan 13, 2007, 04:41 PM // 16:41
|
#64 | |
|
Frost Gate Guardian
Join Date: Dec 2006
|
Quote:
|
|
|
|
|
|
Jan 13, 2007, 07:16 PM // 19:16
|
#66 |
|
Furnace Stoker
Join Date: May 2006
Profession: R/
|
How bout a class by class comparison:
Monk - paragon can't heal as well, neither spike heals nor party wide heals Ele - paragon can't do nearly as much dmg Warrior - paragon compares nicely I think; trade off for less dmg is a ranged attack and some party buffs Mesmer/Necro - way too different to compare Ranger - bows simply outdamage spears. Shortbows hit as fast as spears, every other bow has a longer range, and bow attacks do more damage more easily. Also, condition spreading with a bow is much easier; preparations = switching targets and poisoining/bleeding an entire team. Rits - much better party buffer Sins - spikes, but really not a good comparison as no one wants them anyway Dervish - does hella more damage than a paragon So...the only thing paragons have going for them is that they're mediocre physical damage dealers with spammable but mediocre party buffs. They're like half a warrior and half a rit. That trash with the SF/GFtE is ridiculous; if you're spamming SF you're not attacking, and if you're not attacking you're not charging GFtE, which means no energy gain for you. A 2 pip character with a +6 energy boost every once in a while does not equate a 4 pip char with 80 starting energy, who gains 30% of every spell back, plus 6 energy every 6 seconds or so. |
|
|
|
|
Jan 13, 2007, 11:14 PM // 23:14
|
#67 |
|
Academy Page
Join Date: Oct 2006
|
okay let me put it to you in terms of practice because I know Oinkers and Skyy CLEARLY have not actually attempted these builds.
With a motivation healer and one GFTE spammer in your party, there is no need for a heal spiker. The healing is so constant that it is not necesary. Lets put it this way. Aria of Restoration + GFTE/Envy Spammer. Every third attack, everyone is in the party is healed for 88 HP. That's better than LoD people. Actually application and IN GAME RESULTS, not just someone saying it doesn't work: I have gone in to the Domain of Fear with my paragon as GFTE, Morghan set up with the movtivation heal I have and on LoD monk and didn't have one person die. Better yet, I could count on one hand how many times people got below 50% HP. I go out with two LoD monks and I got people dropping every 5 minutes or so. That is actual practice. Go try it, until you do, you have no validity in what you post. Class by class comparisons are kinda dumb as every class has it's place in the party. Every type has what it does well. But I will play along. Paragons can't spike heal as well as a monk but they are better at party health maintenance (see above). Paragons can't do nearly as much damage as an ele on their own but with a party with a lot of physical damage, they can add enough damage to the over all party to be just as effective if not more effective. Warrior comparable in personal defense, generally less in personal damage but can still add deep wound as well as any axe warrior and can combo these with party buffs. Mesmer/Necro - agreed, no comparison really. However, I would like to point out that Vocal Minority cannot "shut down" a paragon who plans ahead for places like gate of anguish (one of two places in the entire game it is actually used by enemies, btw) by bringing a hex removal for himself. Ranger - standard bow attacks do out damage spears but you won't see rangers adding any defensive or offensive party buffs while doing so. Also, I already pointed out that the damage for spears needs to change. Rit - better party buffer, I beg to differ, although my knowledge is limited so I won't claim to know either way. All I know is that when I have rits in my party, they seem to be sorta useless unless taking the place of a monk. Also, a very misunderstood character class I might add. Sins - no need to reply to that. Devish - more damage... duh. That's what they were desgined to be. A paragons place in the party is complimenting the other builds in the party. Every other class has to do this as well to some degree but a paragon is majorly neutered if they do not consider this unlike other classes. For example, in The last Prophecies mission, no one wants a ranger that isn't bringing winter. It fits to the circumstance and is something that others don't provide. I think the problem that you guys have is that you are looking for the thing Paragons provide that no other class can give you. The issue is that paragons don't do that for the most part. There "job" is to take the things the party has and amplify them or add residual effects that other classes can't provide. The on thing I think paragons have that no other class has and cannot beat is party wide defensive buffs. Ritualists may have a couple of things but not as good, IMO and definitely not as readily available and mobile. You can rant all you want but until you actually TRY the builds, you need to stop providing information that has no factual basis what so ever. |
|
|
|
|
Jan 14, 2007, 12:17 AM // 00:17
|
#68 |
|
Jungle Guide
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: guildhall
Guild: [DETH]
|
http://gw.gamewikis.org/wiki/Weapon
you is wrong  dont alot of rit party buffs, use spirits? which can be killed easily.. quick look on wiki shows a 3-5 cast time on spirits. i have 2 level 20 rits, and there ok, but the paragon is quicker, easier, more consistant and less vunrable on the party buff side. the paragon can also heal/defend and do a nice offensive buffs without sweat. i think the spear line is like smiting, purposely "meh", so u arent just a spearlobbing damage guy that offers nothing else to the party. |
|
|
|
|
Jan 14, 2007, 01:14 AM // 01:14
|
#69 | |
|
Frost Gate Guardian
Join Date: Dec 2006
|
Quote:
I still think most of the arias/ballads/anthems are too conditional compared to the huge range (almost 1 radar) prot offered by rit spirits. Rits out-prot Paragons - the chants/shouts on Paragons (especially GFTE) are more geared torwards helping up the damage. Also, Rits can spam 2 energy heals for 100+hp like a chain gun. There's nothing equivalent a Paragon can do - all Paragons can hope for is casting a earshot-wide shout/chant and hoping it triggers before the party member dies - kinda lame. As for defending, you should see a Rit tank using Xinrae or Vwk. Mine makes me tons of money each day. Not every prot/heal spell on a rit needs a spirit... I've played both Rits and Paras - I naturally like support classes like these and I do appreciate the differences between them. Spear is so-so like Channeling was in the early days - I fully expect it to get buffed like Channeling soon. But Rits out-prot and out-heal Paragons. Lets put it this way: if you want a team with 2 monks and cant find the 2nd monk, most teams would prefer putting in a Rit instead of a Song of Resto Para. Plus, the number of really significant builds for a Rit outnumbers that of a Paragon by a factor of about 3. |
|
|
|
|
|
Jan 14, 2007, 01:26 AM // 01:26
|
#70 | ||
|
Frost Gate Guardian
Join Date: Dec 2006
|
Quote:
Quote:
Paragon chants/shouts are geared a bit towards healing (Aria/Ballad/Song Of Resto), a bit torwards damage reduction (ToF,Incoming,Stand your Ground), and a bit torwards damage dealing (GFTE,FTW). RitLords are full-on prot not limited by earshout range - you can't really beat that. The prot is unconditional, cannot be stripped, and whose range is absolutely huge compared to earshot range. The only comparable Paragon prot is Angelic Bond which doesn't even deserve to be elite as it divides the damage equally with NO reduction. Incoming lasts for 4/5 seconds lol - too useless for PvE, might be OK for PvP. Ritualist's Shelter is a huge party-wide Prot Spirit, by comparison - true damage reduction. Displacement is a 100% Aegis - every attack misses. Nothing the Paragon has can beat that either. |
||
|
|
|
|
Jan 14, 2007, 05:46 AM // 05:46
|
#71 |
|
Desert Nomad
Join Date: Jul 2005
Guild: One of Many [ONE]
|
You could almost totally replace "paragon" with "ranger" and have a thread from before about 10 months ago or so. Shoot, Skyy High's post looks to be copy/pasted from an argument back then - I can not count how man "class comparisons" that proved ranger were worthless and you should never take one (Barrage was OK, but just barely and the *only* build one should ever even consider). Then we had what - the first spirit spammers and Rangers have been a core useful build since then (even though all those "crappy" skills got nerfed for being overpowered once the general GW population figured it out).
We all now know that Ranger's do not suck, those of us that played them back then knew it also. Ahh, well - that's pretty much the attitude towards any general purpose flexible character. I fell the same way now I did with my ranger back then - I'm pretty safe that any build I have isn't going to get nerfed in the next skill balance. |
|
|
|
|
Jan 14, 2007, 08:06 AM // 08:06
|
#72 |
|
Frost Gate Guardian
Join Date: Jan 2006
Guild: Order of Corrupted Souls [OoCS]
Profession: W/
|
To answer the thread title: Misunderstanding.
Paragons as a class are trying to fill in a position that didn't really need filled. A Paragon attempts to bridge the gap between backline and frontline by utilizing the shortbow range of the spear and heavy armor of a warrior. Practically unremovable shouts and chants allow them to become quite formidible on the battlefield in an ideal situation. However, things are not as brilliant as they seem. Far too many of our angelically clad friends are attempting to fill the position of a ranger by loading up on projectile-based DPS and losing their true versitility. However, I am straying too far from my intended point. Paragons can and always will have a hard time because people are unsure of their TRUE role. They have tanks, healers, and DPS. The Paragon doesn't seem to fall into any of those positions, regardless of if they truly can fill each and every one. |
|
|
|
|
Jan 14, 2007, 05:13 PM // 17:13
|
#73 |
|
Wilds Pathfinder
Join Date: Jul 2006
Profession: E/
|
I liked my Paragon and leveled him up really quickly because of the Wintersday event but now he just does not seem fun. He looks awsome and came up with teh greatest build but now I don't know what to do with him after I beat Nightfall. Every character I made has a reason for being made, yet my Paragon does not fit anything yet.
1.) my warrior farms and runs and title farms 2.) my necro UW farms and green farms 3.) my Rit VwK farms 4.) haven't found a great build yet for my ranger but she's starting to run 5.) Paragon....hmm...aqny suggestions cause I am seriously disliking my Paragon about now and am about to delete him. |
|
|
|
|
Jan 14, 2007, 07:30 PM // 19:30
|
#74 | |
|
Forge Runner
Join Date: Apr 2006
Guild: [HiDE]
|
Quote:
|
|
|
|
|
|
Jan 14, 2007, 08:10 PM // 20:10
|
#75 | |
|
Jungle Guide
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: guildhall
Guild: [DETH]
|
Quote:
|
|
|
|
|
|
Jan 14, 2007, 08:46 PM // 20:46
|
#76 |
|
Krytan Explorer
Join Date: Aug 2005
Guild: [Njk]
Profession: Rt/
|
I find that Paragon is best when you hybrid the class. Command and Leadership are probably the best (most used) portions of Paragons. Motivation in my eyes is worthless (although i dont play it so im not experienced). The ToF (they're of fire) Axe Swinger is a good build, and a lot of fun to play. MoR (mark of rogort) Spear Spiker is also fun.
I too got horridly annoyed/bored of the lack of helpfullness the paragon can provide. |
|
|
|
|
Jan 15, 2007, 03:27 AM // 03:27
|
#77 |
|
Wilds Pathfinder
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Away from you.
Profession: W/
|
Command most used? Ugh, I've found that to be extremely useless, sorry to say. Even in the command post where all the highest level stuff is sold, There's only like two command skills.
Edit: Nevermind, that's because I don't have any unlocked. Silly me. I'm glad this has become a major discussion. I'm reading ever word in this thread. |
|
|
|
|
Jan 15, 2007, 06:30 AM // 06:30
|
#78 | |
|
Academy Page
Join Date: Oct 2006
|
Quote:
I assume the two spells you are talking about are mend body and soul and soothing memories. Two very good heal spells. I agree these are very effective. Although, you have still failed to actually look at or try the Paragon Motivation healer I have talked about. I f you had read it you would see that Aria of Resotration heals for 88 when maxed (with no rune) which is a little more than Soothing but less than Mend. As I said I was using this with a GFTE/Envy spammer in tandem (necessary to make it work to your advatage, despite your claims that having two paragons is useless). The motivation healer and the GFTE/Envy spammer are casting GFTE constantly which goes off all allies the moment they attack. What does that equal? Oh yeah, its healing everyone in the party for 88 HP (more if someone runes it up to dedicate themselves to this build) practically every other attack at no energy expense to the paragon (who has a limitless supply of energy anyway. Thought I would explain that to you since you still haven't actually read or tried the build. Lets throw up some more numbers so we can compare. Protect type motivation paragon. Let's see... Just thinking on the fly - (no test only theory) Burning Finale or an SF in your group + they're on Fire = 41% damage reduction. Then throw in Angelic Bond and any damage the tank actually takes then is divided between you and him. Then throw on Angelic Protection just in case he gets spiked, and he gets healed instead (BTW, I confess I do not know whether the other half of that damage gets transfered but I think not as it negates the damage completely). Maybe enduring harmony to make these effects last longer as the skills recharge. There are other possiblities here, Purifying Finale, Never Give Up, Bladeturn Refrain, Stand your ground, hmmm... Plenty of damage reducation and negation there. Anyone want to try to make a build and throw up some real numbers? Oinkers want to actually throw up some numbers on this for the rit prot? Lets talk about this whole damage thing cause I know some of you are sceptical and still believe it is not as significant as say a SF nuker. Lets talk GFTE and Envy for a sec. (sorry this is a broken record but it bares weight). Like I said the biggest paragon restriction and in some ways their benefit is they have to fit into the party build. A GFTE spammer does nothing for casters but put into a high physical damage group with Warriors or a BP group they can be devastating. Lets look at a BP group. Perhaps with 4 rangers and one paragon. GFTE when maxed (w/ rune) gives a +75% chance to critical strike (max damage of weapon x square root of 2). For bows this adds about 11 damage. Seemingly little. But combo this with barrage where each arrow is effected (yes this is confirmed). That is a maximum of 6 arrows per ranger (and the paragon if packing a bow but lets leave him out of it) thats 6x4x11= 264 added damage with one GFTE. Envy can be even more devastation adding 20 damage to each arrow (if hitting a enemy above 50% HP so this takes smart timing). That's 6x4x20= 480. Okay so lets be honest. You don;t get 6 arrows every time. Lets say in tombs you get an average of 4 arrows per barrage. These totals turn into 176 and 320. I timed these cast times on my paragon in Gate of Fear. GFTE can be cast at an average of once every 3 seconds and Envy every 6-8 (this is casting both of them at the same time not conserving adrenaline for just one of these skills). Although SF has a recharge time of 2 seconds, Glowing Gaze is 5. SF eles know that this limits how fast you can really cast SF and averages out to about 3 seconds per cast. I dunno about you but with my SF even with full fire, a glyph of ele power and a superior rune I can only get my SF to be 133 damage and only 119 on its own with full runes (Gaze does 59 with Glyph and 53 without). So, lets do the math folks Over a 10 second period. Lets say the SF casts a Glyph of ele Power and it effects the three SF casts and both Gaze casts. That SF has done 399 damage to the local area and an extra 118 to their target. The local area damage is relatively inconsistent it could be 2 enemies or 6. Usually about 4 which is about 1596 damage + the 118. Total approx 1700. That's darn good. Keep in mind the elementalist has done pretty much nothing else accept cast these spells during this time. But to be honest, I never cast glyph before I go in because by the time you cast fire attunement and restoration you gotta get into the fight. With out glyph, using the same figures, this turns into about about 1500 damage in ten seconds. Lets take the Paragon in the BP group. Over a ten second period, he has cast Envy once and GFTE 3 times. I will use the lower figures that use the average of 4 arrows per barrage as the figures here. That would mean added 320 Envy and 528 with GFTE for a total of 848 added damage to multiple targets in one area. This figure climbs to 1272 if all 6 arrows go out. Guess what... were not done. We haven't put in the paragons extra damage or the pets. The Paragon if using a spear adds about 10 damage per cast theres another 30 and the pets get boosted too (hard to calculate but it is similar to the spear lets be modest and say another 100 damage for the pets). Total damage added = approximately 1000-1400. Yes that is less than the SF but it is a significant contribution. ALSO, during this time, the paragon did not have to wait to start fighting as an SF does when casting fire attunement and restoration at the outset of battle, and is hurling spears the entire time this is going on, has cast Never Surrender boosting heals in the party, put Deep Wound on at least one target (more damage not figured into the total as Gaze's was for the ele as it changes depending on the target) and was able to cast Song of Power to boost casters energy across the entire party or perhaps some other party buff available. I'd say that is a pretty friggin notable contribution. I don't really care about you're opinion, the numbers and effects tell the story themselves. Yeah... So give me REAL DATA. Last edited by Mad5cout; Jan 15, 2007 at 06:49 AM // 06:49.. |
|
|
|
|
|
Jan 15, 2007, 07:37 AM // 07:37
|
#79 | |
|
Frost Gate Guardian
Join Date: Dec 2006
|
Quote:
Put a SF nuker and a Paragon side by side in a high-end environment like the Deep with a variety of situations as an example. You don't seriously think a group to the Deep would replace 3 eles with paragons? And you don't seriously think a Paragon can outdamage a SF nuker? Rodgorts (which is another area spell) + SF is more than 200+ damage to an entire AREA which physical-heavy warriors cannot do. SF nukers can wipeout PvE monsters in like 3 casts. The rest of your argument doesn't even bear reading - I can see some of the math is already wrong. |
|
|
|
|
|
Jan 15, 2007, 07:49 AM // 07:49
|
#80 | |
|
Frost Gate Guardian
Join Date: Dec 2006
|
Quote:
Compared to a Paragon where you have to micro-manage your Angelic Bond on selected players - you can't maintain bonds party wide with 2 pips regen! Angelic protection? Pffft...prot spirit (and its big brother Shelter) still rule for spike protection. The trigger for Angelic Prot is too high anyway. With something like Prot-spirit/Shelter - the 10% equates to about 40/50 in health (depends on party member) and not the 250-130 damage the angelic needs to work. Plus, with Angelic Bond you're wasting an elite slot. The rest of your damage reduction spells only work if you have cast them on everyone - a rit lord's protection is practically unconditional. I seriously doubt you can keep up all those chants/shouts on everyone in a party all the time anyway - not on a 35/40 energy base pool. ToF is nice, but is conditional on enemies being burning. Without an SF nuker making this happen, it's limited. Burning Finale makes 2 or 3 burning at a time unless the enemies are all bunched up beating on your attacking tank, which is unlikely for most balanced groups, since the squishes tend to stay near the back. There are 2 faces to prot - monks (boon prots) and rit (communers). You can't be serious in saying Paragons out-perform either of them. |
|
|
|
|
 |
|
«
Previous Thread
|
Next Thread
»
| Thread Tools | |
| Display Modes | |
Linear Mode
|
|
All times are GMT. The time now is 05:53 AM // 05:53.
jQuery(document).ready(checkAds()); function checkAds(){if (document.getElementById('adsense')!=undefined){document.write("_gaq.push(['_trackEvent', 'Adblock', 'Unblocked', 'false',,true]);");}else{document.write("